Improvements to bossing rewards

[3042060648]

Hi Fantasia Staff and all Fantasia players.

I am Nuggy, a lvl 159 Dark Knight (DK) as of writing this post, from the guild animals, and I am writing this feedback to share my two cents on the landscape of expeditions (bossing) of this server. I am personally not a fan of writing stuff on forums as it is rather time consuming but I feel the need to write this post as I am rather worried about the state of bossing in this server.

1. BACKGROUND

At the time of writing this post, my guild and I have had the good (mis)fortune of being the first to clear Horntail and other bossing content that Fantasia has to offer.

This includes Horntail, The Boss, Zakum, and Papulatus.

So why did I describe our first clear as a misfortune? Because the exp per minute (epm) and mesos per minute (mpm) is horrendous. After the Fantasia Staff have read through this post, I hope that their direction for this server aligns with some of the ideas in this post and implement some buffs that will allow the rest of the server to feel rewarded for clearing these bosses. This post is really meant to prevent the rest of the players from feeling the same way that my guildmates and I have felt as we look at the result from running bosses.
While there are players who arent that interested in bossing, which is fair as everyone should enjoy the game the way they want to, this post is meant to focus on the bossing scene.
So keep your good ideas flowing for content outside of bossing, but that should fall in a separate feedback post.

I have also been tracking the data of my boss runs along with my other grind sessions (Cornians, Nest Golems, Dark Wyverns, Red/Blue Dragon Turtles, Bigfoot, Anego). Note that this post focuses on my POV as a DK, but the data from grind sessions should not deviate too much with other jobs. I will get more into the comparisons in the bossing section below.
For now u can just look at these numbers and go "hah! what a nerd. nobody cares!"

But what about mpm from grinding mobs?
It's a little harder to provide an accurate number as it is influenced by rare loots.
This number also varies depending on your class and how you grind.
As a DK, my pot cost is higher, but the cost is reduced as i gain lvls due to the def scaling.
As at 159, my best map is cornians (burning forest) which averages about 2m-4m mesos per hour.
Other jobs may see higher numbers due to their lower pot costs with some obtaining 6m-8m mesos per hour.
Others may see lower numbers due to their lower lvls resulting in higher pot costs.
But we're not here to compare our d*** size so these estimates and averages are sufficient for this discussion.

2. CURRENT BOSSING STATE

Horntail (HT).

The big end game boss of Fantasia as of this patch.

The server wide message that gets you excited to hit the cornfields in hopes of being the one responsible for the server wide message.

"Grats!"
"How are the loots?!"
"How long did you take?"
"B> HTP service!"
"J> HT!"
"B> skillbook!"

These are the common messages that we've received.
Players are definitely interested in slaying HT.
Many look towards HT as their end goal and stick to the grind to get there.
"but Nuggy, you've written so much but you have yet to suggest anything so far!"
Stay with me. The background is necessary to drive my point across.
But ask and you shall receive! (no one asked but I'm feeling dramatic today)

So lets talk numbers.

HT EPM: 100k (+- 20k)
HT MPM: none at the moment as we have yet to sell anything and we're distributing loots internally.
HT Cost (per expedition): 100m-200m

I know that the EPM is currently scuffed due to the new boss exp leeching formula, but even when it's fixed, the forecasted EPM will only barely match the best grinding maps for high lvls.

But what do these numbers mean?
Now look back at the Background section for my grind data and come back here. I'll wait.

...

If you scrolled up:
Okay I said I'll wait but damn you sure took your time huh.

If you didnt:
SCROLL UP AND LOOK!!!!!!!

"haha you're not funny. stop making this post unnecessarily long!"
It's okay we have CM Egghead to filter all the noise.
If I'm going to spend more than an hour writing this I'd prefer to enjoy the process.
Ok ok that's enough sidetracking.

As you've seen, HT currently gives LESS EXP while costing us truckloads of mesos.
In comparison, players earn more exp AND mesos by sticking to their favourite grind maps.
So what does this mean?

Running bosses does not reward players.

Damn... that sucks...
Then why do you still run HT?
Well it's cause I love seeing the loots fly out!

What loots?
Mana elixers? (the pots dont even come in a full stack! they're ~20 each)
Mesos sacks? (after splitting in 5-6man party, its 10k~20k each)
Red Craven? (not even a dragon weapon?! If i wanted a Red Craven I would've just went to Zakum or grinded Kents!)

All jokes aside, it's 1 egg and 2 pendants per run, with no dragon weapons in 3 runs, one skill book in 3 runs.

As it is, to make HT worth doing after my guild has gotten our skillbooks and egged pendant (which will cost us 1-2b mesos to run all these HT runs), we need to sell skillbooks and pendants in the mid 9 figures. (think 200m to 500m)
Will people even pay that price?
Not all of them will.
Maybe some of them will, albeit very unwillingly.
Others will prefer to try HT themselves.
Sure you can!
That is if you can gather the right party comp of high lvls and the correct jobs, get everyone to agree on a timing, sink 1-2b mesos as a squad, sit there for VERY long hours while maintaining full focus, pray the crucial members dont experience disconnecting issues, all while getting less exp than if you stuck to grinding!

As such, it is difficult to balance buyers expectations with sellers rewards.
After all, bossing, as it is, provides horrendous exp and drops.

While it may not appear to be an immediate problem as everyone is still relatively excited about slaying a new boss, novelty can only carry us so far.
Especially if you have a sucker waking up at 5am/6am for these runs who realized that they are getting less epm and mpm in these bosses.

The same trend can be seen for zakum, the boss, and papu.
I had a lengthier section for these bosses but my dumbass accidentally closed this window and it's deleted and I dont have it in me to write it again so all we get is this temu sentence.
Even till date, despite running heck loads of zak, we still have some skillbooks missing but members are already feeling burnt out and less motivated to run zak due to the fact that we get worse epm AND mpm running zak than if we stuck to grinding mobs.

So what can we do to prevent this?
Don't worry I do have some ideas.
I'm not here to just cry about things without offering realistic suggestions.
Otherwise I'm better off sticking to trolling discord by asking people for their pics.

3. SUGGESTIONS (at last!)

There are many ways to skin the (3 headed) cat.

The two main ways that come to mind are:

a. Increase the EXP; and/or
b. Increase the drop rate;

Personally, I think the long run makes it an exciting challenge.
But a good challenge should come with an equally good reward!
I love how things are more difficult here.
But I would love it more if at the end of a difficult challenge, players are rewarded!
If you consider the challenges faced with completing a boss run, namely:

i. getting the right party comp (hs, se, si, hb, threaten, sed);
ii. having these players agree on a set time that works for everyone (some suckers inadvertently have to run at awkward timings like 5am just to make it work);
iii. pray people dont disconnect (especially those important jobs like hb/bishops); and
iv. the cost of running these runs.

Players will enjoy bossing content if at the end of all these struggles, they get higher epm and/or mpm than grinding!

Otherwise, after the novelty has faded, or after we have obtained an egged pendant or our skill book (I'm looking at you Egghead, Ruck, Bishop, and Arisu!), what reason is there to continue with bossing?

It sure as heck aint appealing to me to go through all these challenges to get less rewards than if I stuck to grinding.

But how rewarding should it be?
Definitely not too much to throw things off balance.
But definitely not an increase so nominal that it doesnt solve the root problem that bossing is less rewarding than grinding mobs.
It could be a combination of more exp and drop rates too!

Looking back at the Fantasia Staff's intentions for the server, my best guess is that higher exp yield would be their preferred buff.
With that in mind, I hope the data that i've shared regarding my epm from grinding provides some kind of benchmark for the staff to work with.
Even though this post focused more on my HT experience, the same trend is seen for all other expedition bosses.
Threfore, I think a 2x-3x buff to expedition exp will certainly be well received.
But I'm a greedy bastard so lets hear it from the rest of you!

 

[ubiquitousfoodenjoyer]

 

[Argurotoxus!]

I don't have hard numbers on higher level players burning out and leaving the game, but as of right now the argument of not buffing the rewards of bosses because it would increase the speed which players retire from various bosses is putting the cart before the horse.

Anecdotally, most of the higher level players I talk to are feeling unrewarded for the time they play the game and would rather retire Fantasia altogether. Worrying about retiring bosses early is irrelevant in the face of players experiencing enough disappointment that they just put the game down altogether.

I understand that getting lucky/unlucky with drops is "part of the game" but clearly the Fantasia team does not have problems with changing some aspects of what was "part of the game" or else we'd have mages with no CD FMA and NLC pots and the legendary grinding maps would remain un-nerfed. I'm not clamoring for these aspects to be changed back, I agree with most of the changes made, it just means something being "part of the game" is not a valid argument against making changes.

There is not enough of a population of high level players doing these runs for even non-casual players to get their skillbooks in a timely manner; they're completely out of reach for any casual playerbase. And if bossing, the premier draw to end-game Maple, is not rewarding, I would wager we will not ever see enough of a high level population stick around for this problem to resolve itself.

So +1 to making bossing more rewarding. It should feel awesome to get to a high enough level to clear these bosses and it should be a huge draw. Clearly right now that is not the case.

 

[Arisu]

Having completed one run so far, I feel that the overall rewards and experience for the squad fall short of expectations. Given the risks taken, resources invested, and the level of coordination and communication required, the payoff feels disproportionate, which diminishes the sense of achievement.

 

[craig]

between this and the last post about book drops from zak, the future of this server is looking grim. what's the point of leveling up if the bosses don't drop anything. the low drop rate just seems like a bad way to keep players playing. idk i had hopes for this server but at this point it's clear in the design language that the point is to oppress the player and nothing else

 

[Pumpkin]

I don't have hard numbers on higher level players burning out and leaving the game, but as of right now the argument of not buffing the rewards of bosses because it would increase the speed which players retire from various bosses is putting the cart before the horse.

Anecdotally, most of the higher level players I talk to are feeling unrewarded for the time they play the game and would rather retire Fantasia altogether. Worrying about retiring bosses early is irrelevant in the face of players experiencing enough disappointment that they just put the game down altogether.

I understand that getting lucky/unlucky with drops is "part of the game" but clearly the Fantasia team does not have problems with changing some aspects of what was "part of the game" or else we'd have mages with no CD FMA and NLC pots and the legendary grinding maps would remain un-nerfed. I'm not clamoring for these aspects to be changed back, I agree with most of the changes made, it just means something being "part of the game" is not a valid argument against making changes.

There is not enough of a population of high level players doing these runs for even non-casual players to get their skillbooks in a timely manner; they're completely out of reach for any casual playerbase. And if bossing, the premier draw to end-game Maple, is not rewarding, I would wager we will not ever see enough of a high level population stick around for this problem to resolve itself.

So +1 to making bossing more rewarding. It should feel awesome to get to a high enough level to clear these bosses and it should be a huge draw. Clearly right now that is not the case.

Arguro, this couldn’t have been put any better.

To make the claim that we’d just stop bossing and screw over our up and coming players once we manage to get our skills suggests a pretty low opinion of the playerbase.

 

[Portrait-]

“Hey, let’s team up and go hunt some bosses!”

Why bother? The EXP is low, the drop rate is terrible, it burns through potions, wastes time and even if you get a skill book, it fails when you use it. Farming Cornians is way more worth it.

I think this kind of rate might only work for official servers that have 5,000+ players online.

 

[Tornado]

I think we need to be honest about the distinction between "classic vibes" and "outdated design."

While I understand the devs' intention to preserve the original feeling of the game, obsessing over strict vanilla drop rates is unreasonable. Just because it's "original" doesn't mean it's actually good design. A lot of vanilla Maplestory’s mechanics were fundamentally flawed and don't translate well to what modern players actually need.

To me, the true essence of Maplestory has always been the social aspect—the community and the friends you make along the way. It was never about the punishingly low drop rates, low EXP, or lack of QoL. Those were just barriers, not features.

As much as I enjoy Fantasia, I’m genuinely worried about the server’s longevity with the current philosophy. If we stick too rigidly to these mechanics under the guise of nostalgia, we risk driving players away. I’d hate to see this server end up with a population of 10-20 people like Phoenix.

The core of old-school Maple is the journey with people, not the struggle against bad game design. We need to adapt if we want to keep the community alive.

 

[Fletcher]

I think we need to be honest about the distinction between "classic vibes" and "outdated design."

You had me here, this is correct. Good take I like this.

 

[Patrick_FF]

We are seeing a constant stream of new-joiners to the server, but also a sizeable population of 4th jobbers who have expressed their frustrations with some game designs. If these are not addressed, it’ll only lead to attrition of the player base, primarily 2nd jobbers (who will quit after not seeing much reason to grind further) and 4th jobbers (due to lack of incentives among late-game content). This does not bode well for the server’s health.

I understand that the dev team had a particular game philosophy, but we are hoping for some communication in response to the very very valid points raised recently. If not our suggestions; then we would expect the dev team to share what do they have in mind to address said issues, more detailed roadmap of what’s to expect in the coming months, etc. For example, the content roadmap that was released back in Nov 2025, when are the new areas expected? Some basic timeline would keep the player base excited rather than feeling the doom and gloom.

 

[ruck]

instanced bossing should give the best mesos and experience by far. theres a reason why there are strict requirements and limits to them per day. even more so for expedition bosses.

simple fix is to increase droprates of items and a substantial increase in exp. pianus and papu are simple examples of rewarding bosses that players clear because it is profitable. papu is profitable because the item drops are generous. pianus is profitable because of supplies like elixirs/power elixirs/milks.

currently zakum is giving 76k epm as a 164 NL whiting. a whopping total of 1.9m xp for a 25 minute clear.
horntail is giving 140k epm as a 164 NL, also whiting everything except wings and arms. i do not want to give information of run time and total exp gained but to the devs u can check the logs.
skeles im getting 150-200k epm, cornians 120k-160k.

to stress this point even further, this is from the perspective of NL, the lowest epm grinder AND the highest exp bosser. some classes are getting easily 120-150k epm solo at certain maps. some classes are getting easily 200k in party play. also realise these numbers are for highest dps in the game at horntail. 2nd highest dps in the game at target dummy bosses only losing to pahei. and now think about every other essential class at horntail like dk/bucc/bishop/SE.

just look at the perspective of a bishop going into horntail. bishops have by far the most amount of work to do in horntail, lowering their damage significantly in a horntail run, therefore getting significantly less xp. my bishop is getting 70k epm at horntail. whats the reward for a bishop to go into horntail? why not just hit skeles and get 150k-200k epm and get more mesos at the same time? KEEP IN MIND U LOSE AT MINIMUM 10M MESOS AT HORNTAIL.

the exp that bishops get from expeditions should be higher than grinding mobs. they should get at least 300k epm from zak/ht. of course the attackers will get more, but the balance in rewarding them for their time can be mitigated by getting more splits. currently zak/ht is the most ineffective use of a bishops time. they can get wayyyyyy more mesos and wayyyyyyy more experience just grinding outside. the point of balancing it around bishops is because HS is too important for expeditions and HT runs are infinitely harder without a bishop, and they get the least amount of experience in zak/ht.

for the longevity of bossing on Fantasia, there needs to be more rewards for expeditions. from the perspective of my guild, once all my members have htp and skill books, whats the point of running horntail? my members get more exp and more mesos grinding.

also, because we have access to the monster book of zakum and using drop chance numbers from osmlib, your marksmen skillbooks drop chances are like 1/200. this includes snipe 20 and markman boost 30. so on average 400 zakums need to be cleared before a marksman gets marksman boost 30? whats the point in that? thats an average of 6 months of doing zakum twice a day everyday for just ONE marksman. ?????????????????????? 400 zakums of 76k epm for a NL everyday for 6 months. great design

zak/ht have always been balanced around giving good xp and good mesos, i suggest at least a 2x increase in weapon drops, 2x increase in skill books, and at least a 5x increase in exp. there is no reason that grinding mobs should be even remotely close to exp/mesos that zak/ht should give. throwing some numbers out, zakum should be like 300k epm on average and horntail should be like 500k epm on average. and how is horntail and zakum only dropping 50 elixirs for a 12 man run like whats the point? 80 mana elixirs? hello???

oh and dont forget The Boss as well. that guy is the most inefficient use of time, i got less than 50k epm and a lantern that gave 100 elixirs. 100 elixirs is the grand total loot we got from the boss. imagine what exp my bishops/dks are getting.

the simple reason why epm is so low in Fantasia is because our power level is extremely low. at the point in the game when u can 1 shot all monsters and are losing damage to exp conversion, then looking for bosses that you cannot 1 shot becomes the best epm. so either u buff all our characters, which is probably not in line with the devs vision of the game, or u SIGNIFICANTLY increase the exp/loot from bosses.

the current model to grind and be punished to go to bosses for skill books is extremely unsustainable. bosses should always be something people look forward to and be rewarded handsomely for. if this server only rewards grinding, this is a vision i do not want to be a part of.

 

[Sweetgreenfruit]

I saw this reply in another thread very similar to this one.

 

[4thJobSeries]

instanced bossing should give the best mesos and experience by far. theres a reason why there are strict requirements and limits to them per day. even more so for expedition bosses.

I don't think instanced bosses should give the best mesos AND experience. I've played many servers where this is the case & this takes all other parts of the game out of the question. Every day is log in, 2x Zak, 2x Scarga, 2x Wulin, 2x HT, 2x Chaos Zak, etc, etc. It's fun for a little bit, but eventually when everything is bossing it no longer feels special. Imo this kills a server because if you're not in "the group" of people that run all the bosses (maybe you're in a different time zone) you can basically go grind for 3x less experience. In saying that it sounds like it could be buffed, but idk about 5x more EXP, that would make it "mandatory" to just do the boss runs each day.

I do think HT/The Boss should be the highest epm, however if they're the best epm then I do think they should be a meso loss overall (just not as big of a loss as it currently is). Imo Anego/BF as they're hard to find should be the next best epm, then should come Zak, & then grinding.

OR

If HT is to be the best mesos, then the epm should stay as it is. Having something the best at mesos & EXP kind of makes everything else obsolete/why bother.

Overall I hope stuff doesn't go from one extreme to the other. Either extreme (only bossing is good vs only grinding is good) is not good game design imo.

 

[ruck]

sure i can agree with that. some bosses having the best epm and some bosses having the best mesos.

e.g. papu and pianus are high mesos horrible xp, The Boss gives highest xp but horrible mesos.

there is an argument for horntail to not have the highest epm and highest mesos, but it is justified to have both high epm and high mesos. it has the steepest requirements to run. it is also the most difficult fight out of the bosses currently available. the epm should definitely be better than grinding. even if its lets just say its 250k epm and 5m mesos per hour profit, it will be rewarding enough to run, and i would still need to grind. you still get scrolls/NX/all non-weapon equipment from grinding. grinding is also a more reliable source of weapons compared to zakum for example. and most importantly, i can grind alone, blast music and ignore my friends. im definitely ok with a balance like that.

 

[Egghead]

This thread is similar to this other one over here where Konfig offered his input if you want to find his comment (Sweetgreenfruit provided the comment just above as well):

Suggestion to Allow Trading of Zakum Skill Book Drops and to Increase Drop Rates of Certain Mastery Books

If you are interested in receiving serious replies to your feedback, you'll need to be more specific. We read all player feedback, and we deeply value our players, of all types and levels. You have been given in-depth feedback by many people, including myself, since the server released. The...

fantasia.ms

For Horntail explicitly, the drops from those 3 runs are considered quite unlucky. The test KOs done by Atlas after I asked about this seemed to give on average 2 books per. The weapon drop rate felt low to the Fantasia team, so we can expect those rates to be buffed.

I have asked about buffing boss experience with recent discussions as points above explained; not easy to gather a bunch of people, and a fair bit of time spent doing that and other things (Transformation quest too). The team didn't sound too eager to mess with those numbers just yet as there are some changes on the way, but their attention is on this matter. Might need a little time to pass after the next patch to see where things are at.

 

[Resplandor]

I disagree specifically with the suggestion the bosses should drop more mesos. That would increase inflation.